Lost haltonarp.com discussions – Questions about Arpian cosmology

This is part of a reconstruction of some of the discussions that went on in the discussion board of haltonarp.com. Few years ago the site was reconstructed and the discussions went offline. They haven’t been seen since until now.

Questions about Arpian cosmology

Mike Cogan 2005-05-16 15:40:55
Hi everyone!
I recently read “Kicking the Sacred Cow” by James P. Hogan. He has a section which summarizes some of the observations and implications of those obsevations made by Halton Arp. I found it extremely interesting and will be looking for his books as soon as I can get to a good library (there are none around here). Big Bang cosmology is generating more and more dubious explanations for observed phenomena as time goes on.
I have some questions about Arp’s universe, and have so far been unable to find answers elsewhere. I thought I’d try here — maybe someone here can help me. Thanks in advance.
1. I’m having a bit of trouble understanding the minor axis ejection concept. Using the standard model of our own galaxy as an example, it seems that Arp’s observations show quasars to be ejected in the plane of the galactic disc, along opposite spiral arms….is this correct or am I missing something? Are all spirals then ejecting quasars? Ejection at the axis of rotation would seem to make more sense (less resistance), so maybe I’m reading the descriptions wrong?
2. Arp’s universe is classified as a steady-state universe. It would seem to me that for a steady-state universe, matter needs to be destroyed as well as created. Otherwise, extrapolations into the past would contain less and less matter, beginning in a single primordial object (whether Seyfert analog or quasar). So where is the mechanism and/or observation of matter being destroyed?
3. The Virgo and Fornax superclusters are mentioned as pairs. Where (approximately) would they have been ejected from?
4. Has anyone created a 3-D map for the local supercluster as observed in Arp’s universe for the mathematically challenged of us?
5. There seem to be two different “life-cycles” for ejected quasars, according to Arp’s diagram. Is there a observed reason some quasars eventually become companion galaxies and others become BL LAC before breaking up into a cluster of galaxies? What is the proportion, or the chance, of ejected quasars developing into one or the other?
6. Have all of the observed galaxies today gone through an active stage in which they eject quasars, or is this something that happens to only a proportion of quasars in the process of becoming galaxies?
7. Mass increases with age in Arp’s universe. What consequences does this have for the oldest objects? Would they undergo gravitational collapse?
8. Is there any indication of how long it takes for a newly created quasar to reduce its redshift? Does this happen at a steady rate or an exponential one? How long would it take a newborn quasar to settle down into, say, our galaxy at the present time?
9. Is there any indication of how long ago the Virgo Supercluster would have consisted of a single central Seyfert type galaxy?
10. Were the Milky Way’s companion galaxies and globular clusters then ejected from the Milky Way? Is this a process that is continuing today?

Ari Jokimäki 2005-05-17 08:42:31
Hi Mike!

Good set of questions you have there! Maybe too good, I think that many of them don’t have answers yet.

Quoting Mike Cogan:
I recently read “Kicking the Sacred Cow” by James P. Hogan. He has a section which summarizes some of the observations and implications of those obsevations made by Halton Arp. I found it extremely interesting and will be looking for his books as soon as I can get to a good library (there are none around here).

Many of Dr. Arp’s published papers are online, you can find them from NASA ADS, just write “Arp” to the “Authors”-box and click “send query”. Another place is arXiv.org’s astro-ph where you can access newer papers that haven’t been published yet. Many of the papers are quite readable even for a layman. Meanwhile I’ll have a go with your questions, but don’t get your hopes up, I’m no expert.

Quoting Mike Cogan:
1. I’m having a bit of trouble understanding the minor axis ejection concept. Using the standard model of our own galaxy as an example, it seems that Arp’s observations show quasars to be ejected in the plane of the galactic disc, along opposite spiral arms….is this correct or am I missing something? Are all spirals then ejecting quasars? Ejection at the axis of rotation would seem to make more sense (less resistance), so maybe I’m reading the descriptions wrong?

Other parts of this question I don’t know, but I’m under the impression that ejections occur only in galaxies that have active nucleus (AGN).

Quoting Mike Cogan:
2. Arp’s universe is classified as a steady-state universe. It would seem to me that for a steady-state universe, matter needs to be destroyed as well as created. Otherwise, extrapolations into the past would contain less and less matter, beginning in a single primordial object (whether Seyfert analog or quasar). So where is the mechanism and/or observation of matter being destroyed?

Well, actually Arp’s universe is classified as a static universe. This term is continuously been confused with steady state universe, but they are different. In steady state universe space expands and trace amounts of matter is created in extragalactic space (you might have heard of this, as this is the model of the universe that Fred Hoyle was advocating). In static universe space doesn’t expand.

I believe that the matter creation/destruction mechanism is said to be in the cores of active galaxies, hence the ejections of quasars made of new matter, but I’m not sure about this.

On a general level, there is two possibilities for this. 1: Matter is transformed to energy and energy is then transformed back to matter. 2: Matter/energy is destroyed altogether and new matter/energy is created. Problem with 2 is that how do you create same amount of matter/energy as you destroy, probably the same process should handle both creation and destruction. Problem with 1 might be entropy, which is said to increase all the time, so either universe is a perpetual machine (overall entropy would be constant in this case) or there is some new matter/energy created.

Questions 3-5: Sorry, I don’t know.

Quoting Mike Cogan:
6. Have all of the observed galaxies today gone through an active stage in which they eject quasars, or is this something that happens to only a proportion of quasars in the process of becoming galaxies?

I don’t know, but I quess they have gone through the active stage, because I think that all objects should be in on the recycling process.

Quoting Mike Cogan:
7. Mass increases with age in Arp’s universe. What consequences does this have for the oldest objects? Would they undergo gravitational collapse?

Perhaps there is a upper limit to mass increase, some kind of saturation point?

Question 8: Sorry, I don’t know.

Quoting Mike Cogan:
9. Is there any indication of how long ago the Virgo Supercluster would have consisted of a single central Seyfert type galaxy?

In principle it would be possible to calculate this, but you should know all the ejections that have took place there, which is a very difficult thing to establish. Also you need to know the ejection velocity, and there are also gravitational effects distorting the situation. So, I’m quite sure that there currently is no such indication.

Quoting Mike Cogan:
10. Were the Milky Way’s companion galaxies and globular clusters then ejected from the Milky Way? Is this a process that is continuing today?

I’m not sure if globular clusters are considered ejected objects, but it is possible that Milky Way has been ejecting at some point. If ejections occur only in galaxies having AGN, and if Milky Way has an AGN, then perhaps it is still going on. But I doubt it, though.

Well, I didn’t help much. 🙂 You must understand that Arp’s model is a work in progress, there are lot of unanswered questions. But be sure to check up the papers, I’m sure you’ll find them interesting.

Ritchie Annand 2005-05-17 09:02:51

Quoting Mike Cogan:
Hi everyone!

I recently read “Kicking the Sacred Cow” by James P. Hogan. He has a section which summarizes some of the observations and implications of those obsevations made by Halton Arp. I found it extremely interesting and will be looking for his books as soon as I can get to a good library (there are none around here). Big Bang cosmology is generating more and more dubious explanations for observed phenomena as time goes on.

Sounds like an interesting book. I’m a little worried at one review that said he considers part-positively Intelligent Design – just came off a big rant at a Humphries supporter myself, but the lack of empirical cross-checking in many fields today, especially in the ‘harder-to-check’ subjects, is… disconcerting. I’ll have to pick up a copy 🙂

I have some questions about Arp’s universe, and have so far been unable to find answers elsewhere. I thought I’d try here — maybe someone here can help me. Thanks in advance.

Well, we’ll give it a good college try – there are some things that are still open to interpretation.

1. I’m having a bit of trouble understanding the minor axis ejection concept. Using the standard model of our own galaxy as an example, it seems that Arp’s observations show quasars to be ejected in the plane of the galactic disc, along opposite spiral arms….is this correct or am I missing something? Are all spirals then ejecting quasars? Ejection at the axis of rotation would seem to make more sense (less resistance), so maybe I’m reading the descriptions wrong?

From his Seeing Red, I gather that the implication is that both kinds of ejection occur. Most of the quasar ejections you see would be ejections vertically out of the core, but ejections on the minor axis don’t make it out of the disc.

I can imagine spiral arms forming out of this phenomenon, but Arp doesn’t spend time on the subject. He does have some diagrams of what looks like ‘captured’ quasars – symmetric blobs in the disc itself. I can track down the objects if you’re interested.

2. Arp’s universe is classified as a steady-state universe. It would seem to me that for a steady-state universe, matter needs to be destroyed as well as created. Otherwise, extrapolations into the past would contain less and less matter, beginning in a single primordial object (whether Seyfert analog or quasar). So where is the mechanism and/or observation of matter being destroyed?

We were discussing that over in the Cosmogony forum, actually 🙂 I’m not sure I agree with Arp and Narlikar’s variable mass hypothesis, personally, but I can’t discount it out of hand. It needs a reverse process. Either that, or the universe’s age is finite, and will eventually suffer a “mass death” 🙂

3. The Virgo and Fornax superclusters are mentioned as pairs. Where (approximately) would they have been ejected from?

I didn’t see anything actually relating the two, save for showing that identical processes were operating in each. Haven’t heard of them being pairs in that sense, but I don’t know all of Arp’s works.

4. Has anyone created a 3-D map for the local supercluster as observed in Arp’s universe for the mathematically challenged of us?

Now that would be wonderful!

I suppose someone could compile it together from the SIMBAD database, but there are a number of objects that, by redshift, aren’t conventionally considered part of the local supercluster.

5. There seem to be two different “life-cycles” for ejected quasars, according to Arp’s diagram. Is there a observed reason some quasars eventually become companion galaxies and others become BL LAC before breaking up into a cluster of galaxies? What is the proportion, or the chance, of ejected quasars developing into one or the other?

I don’t know as we’ve observed enough objects to give that a definite answer. It is still, as far as I know, tough to get telescope time on objects with discrepant objects 🙂

6. Have all of the observed galaxies today gone through an active stage in which they eject quasars, or is this something that happens to only a proportion of quasars in the process of becoming galaxies?

I don’t think so. As far as I’ve been able to tell, some quasars just smoothly go on to age to be normal galaxies, and further ejections are actually made by the original parent galaxy.

7. Mass increases with age in Arp’s universe. What consequences does this have for the oldest objects? Would they undergo gravitational collapse?

Perhaps. What would such a final phase look like, though, if we wanted to look for it?

8. Is there any indication of how long it takes for a newly created quasar to reduce its redshift? Does this happen at a steady rate or an exponential one? How long would it take a newborn quasar to settle down into, say, our galaxy at the present time?

That’s a calculation I can’t make off the top of my head 🙂 The ejections are supposed to start with a velocity of about 0.1c and eventually slow down… perhaps to around 0.0001c (300 km/s – at least that’s the figure for normal galactic velocities I remember) Could take a while.

9. Is there any indication of how long ago the Virgo Supercluster would have consisted of a single central Seyfert type galaxy?

That follows from your last question. I’d also be interested to know 🙂

Then, of course, come the question… “what came before that?”

I think we’ll need to track down the ‘recycling mechanism’, which we should be able to see in action in the sky somewhere, is, and we’ll have a better handle on that question 🙂

10. Were the Milky Way’s companion galaxies and globular clusters then ejected from the Milky Way? Is this a process that is continuing today?

I’m not entirely sure precisely how globular clusters relate to the Milky Way. Andromeda is more likely to be a progenitor galaxy. The Magellanic Clouds may be children.

You raise good questions. Sorry that I’m too much on the layman side to give you the hard data you need, but between here and the Bad Astronomy boards, you may find what you’re looking for. Pay special attention to David Russell; he’s published a few very good papers on topics in this area.

Welcome aboard!:)

— Ritchie

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